How to Keep Girls in Cricket: What Actually Works

Briony let me ask you something. Why do so many girls love sport in the early years, but then stop playing it a few years down the line?

It’s a really important question because by the time girls reach their early teenage years, they’re dropping out of sport at significantly higher rates than boys.

Yeah, and in cricket there’s often a really key moment in that journey, that transition from softball to hardball, new skills, new pressures and sometimes not enough support.

So today we’re asking a really important question. What actually helps girls stay in the game? What role do coaches, parents and clubs play in that? And how do we create environments where girls can genuinely thrive in cricket?

To explore that, today we’re joined by someone who has seen the women’s game from the inside out as a player, as a coach, and as a leader.

I’m Briony Brock.

and I’m Nathan Wood.

Welcome to the Cricket Mind Podcast.

And alongside her playing and coaching career, she’s also completed two master’s degrees, including research into female coaches working in the professional game. So today we’re going to explore Laura’s journey through the game from international cricket to coaching and leadership. And we’re also going to be talking about the growth of the women’s game and what that means for players, parents.

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and coaches. So Laura, welcome to the pod.

Thank you very much, good to chat.

I was about to say it was a lovely hot summer, but I looked at it earlier on and the last two games of the series against South Africa were rained off. yeah, lovely British weather helping us out there. yeah, it was a series against South Africa where I made my debut. was a five game series. We were going into the fourth one with a World Cup in the winter in mind.

If I recall correctly, I replaced Claire Taylor, not Claire Taylor, the batter but Claire Taylor, the bowler, the dual international. And I actually opened the bowling with my good friend Sue Redfern. So ⁓ left arm from one end, right arm from the other end. And I was economical, so bowled six overs none for eight. But then it rained.

So the game got cancelled, got abandoned, probably about 30 overs in. But in those days, there were very few people watching. It was just family. Don’t believe it was on TV. Certainly, there wasn’t anything like PMOA. So there was no restricting as to where anybody went, really. I think we were in whites. So the game has come on.

a long, long way since then in terms of that professionalization.

Which ground were you playing at?

Yup,

That was hot. was ⁓ so good. Good cricket grounds for women’s cricket back in those days.

was there a sense of we’re playing on a lesser ground, there’s no one watching, this is sort of less important than men’s cricket? Or is that something we sort of maybe look back on and put that lens on it, that it was sort of not taken as seriously?

don’t believe we probably ever thought this is not what it should be. ⁓ I think we were probably grateful of whatever it was that was given to us at that time. We will have played on some, probably mainly in the club scene really or county.

regions as it was then. It’s funny how these things kind of come full circle over the years that it’s been. yeah, it wasn’t like we felt as if we deserved better. It was just nice to be playing an international series and, you know, making my debut and then going on to be selected for the World Cup was a fantastic year for me. I’d literally just finished school, finished my A-levels the year before. So

not gone to uni, so I made that decision not to go to uni ⁓ and ⁓ started my international career.

You had a really interesting playing journey, actually. think you started off as a pace bowler. Later became an opening batter who bowls spin. Is that right? And if it is right, how did that evolution happen, Laura?

Yeah, so I suppose as a youngster coming through, I was always regarded as a bowler, so a bowled decent away swing. Wasn’t fast in any way, shape or form. I bowled as fast as I could, but generally probably wasn’t at the time. Catherine Fitzpatrick was the fast bowler to compare yourself to, and I wasn’t in her league

So yeah, both that ⁓ and I suppose as the game was evolving, we were playing a lot more. I probably didn’t have the strength and conditioning background in order to support the loads that I was bowling and hence I developed a bit of soreness in my back. ⁓ I never got technically diagnosed with a stress fracture, but I was on my way to having a stress fracture. So

I quit the bowling ⁓ and I don’t think we probably ever had like a return to bowling program back in those days. I think it was like, well, your batting’s okay. So maybe pursue that. So, and I think the boys cricket that I played gave me a really good grounding to certainly step up in the batting ranks. I think I might’ve been number 11 in my, you know, in my first game for England.

and then slowly and surely gradually worked my way up. Started to probably prove that I could be a top order batter in the domestic game that sat underneath. yeah, it was when Richard Bates took over as England coach. He sat myself and Charlotte Edwards down and says, right, I want you two to open. I want you two to score 75 off the first 15 overs.

and I cried. ⁓ It was terrifying. To go at that rate was far and above what we’d ever gone at in any sort of game. it was terrifying, but also an absolute honor and a privilege to open the batting and particularly with Lottie. ⁓ So yeah, I was pretty good at the demo. So going through the coaching,

education pathway, you would need to be able to demo. So I could demo off spin, leg spin, and I found that I could tweak a ball pretty nicely. So, you know, probably a net bowler in the first instance, because I just didn’t want to not do anything at practice. And then probably more latterly in my career, I then managed to earn a spot as a bowler and become an option as a spinner. So

Yeah, started as a medium-paced bowl and finished as an opening batter that could give you a few overs of spin.

I’ve got to ask. So Richard Bates set you that target. You and Lottie go out. Did it, what happened? Did you achieve it?

Yeah, we did actually. ⁓ So again, it’s probably a little bit around if you set a target and if you give people enough belief that they can achieve it, then ⁓ we certainly had a proper go at achieving that. And we had a really good batting lineup. We’ve got Claire Taylor, pretty legendary.

batter coming in at three. Lydia Greenway was in there. you we certainly give it a good go. And I think that was probably a pivotal moment to start the targets. 180 was a good score in 50 overs when I started, but then you’re sort of eating towards 250 and, you know, now it’s, I guess it’s anything above 300 if not The Aussies scored 400, didn’t they recently?

So those targets kept going up and up. when I, I’ve got a couple of DVDs and I think a couple of years ago, maybe even a bit more than that, I watched myself batting. it was horrible to watch. It was so, it was so boring. You know, I would leave half volleys — I was just so scared of probably failing or getting out that, you know, that’s probably where the game has made massive changes is the fearlessness now.

that the players have, both in the men’s and the women’s games. So, yeah, I think that was a kickstart to playing a bit more fearless cricket, a bit more attacking cricket, and power, I suppose, was starting to come in there. And we then had a team that could hit boundaries, and we had a team that could build innings and certainly start to pose competitive scores.

At that time, much cricket were you playing? Because you said you’d made the choice not to go to university. But we know roughly they’re full timers now, particularly if they’ve got those England contracts. How much of your time was made up of actual cricket? And were you doing something else on the side? What was the structure of your life like?

Yeah, so weekends were very much consumed by cricket and sometimes we do meet up ⁓ and we talk about how we could be in Sussex on the Saturday and then probably be in Yorkshire on the Sunday. It was madness. yeah, we would just, the weekends would definitely be taken up with cricket. And then there were the occasional midweek games, but that was definitely

more England related. So there was never any domestic series or domestic competitions going on apart from the Cambridge Festival. So that was back in the day again, the Cambridge County Festival, five days back to back and 50 over cricket. ⁓ Loads were nothing. So you would definitely be very much pushing your limits that week.

Certainly if you were a front line bowler or if you scored a few runs you would be probably on your knees if not lower on a Thursday and Friday of that week. So and I had to support myself with coaching so you get a lottery grant but it wasn’t anything to, it was really to support you so you would pay for your one-to-one coach, you’d pay out of your lottery funding for your gym membership, you’d pay for your equipment.

give yourself mileage out of that. So there never was making any money really from that. So there was a job that you had to and I did coaching in schools and on schemes to supplement my pursuit of my dreams.

You were part of the England set up during a period where the women’s game, I think you said it before actually, was just starting to grow and evolve. What changes have had the biggest impact on opportunities for girls coming into cricket today, would you say?

Ultimately, it comes down to investment, doesn’t it? So that ⁓ professionalism, the fact that these players nowadays, it is their primary occupation. It is how they need and choose to live their lives. They are solely focused on being a good athlete and being a good cricketer.

I don’t think I did my utmost best to be a professional, but in a very much an amateur way. So the science, the coaching has come on in leaps and bounds. And, you know, it was a high level when I was playing, but it certainly is nothing compared to what the players have right now.

You know, the investment, and that’s not just in the coaching structure, that’s in how it’s presented and where it’s played and all of those things that the men’s game has had for a long, long time. Those are the things that are now starting to reap some rewards.

Do you think it’s a hundred percent positive because I’ve spoken to a few players who’ve actually decided to, who’ve maybe they’ve got a pro contract with the county, but they also coach. And actually a couple have gone, actually, I’m just going to get a non-cricket job instead of coaching because when cricket’s your everything that can increase that pressure and that sense of you are, cricket’s your whole identity. And

I found that quite an interesting idea that actually having a separate world, separate space from cricket could actually relieve some of that pressure. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, totally agree. I think it’s a really sensible, pragmatic plan. Because you just don’t know how long you are actually going to have a professional contract. So if you’re sensible about it, you will be having a Plan B, you will be working on a Plan B. And certainly, during my time, I was working on a Plan B, I was getting a degree. ⁓

My separation was my kids. Whenever I trained, I could be the cricketer when I got in the car and drove to wherever it was, Old Trafford or Bradford Park Avenue. We would meet up ⁓ as England players and try and train as much as we possibly can. But the moment that I walked through my front door, I was mum. ⁓

Mm.

had that separation, which was great. Now, I’m not advocating for players to have children as a welcome distraction, but it is something that I think is very sensible in this day and age where there’s so much pressure now on them to perform and to have some perspective is a good choice. you know, the careers that… And I think where…

where we are in the game right now, we’re not where this game is going to finish. So actually the salaries that these players are on, if they’ve gone through their education, they’ve got a degree, their salary that they could earn is probably far in excess of what it could be as a player. If you look at some of the rookie contracts,

they are sort of the real living wage. ⁓ And it is a difficult choice, but it’s also a choice that some people make because it’s what they always dreamt of doing. but yeah, there are some really astute girls out there that if they’ve got the two career paths, the career path in terms of their academic or vocation,

their salaries are far in excess of what a current player is certainly on. And I think it’s headed in the right direction. There won’t be players that have to make those types of choices and there will be players who can make a really good living out of playing cricket.

I guess cricket’s one where that peak can come slightly later, which sort of allows potentially girls to, if they want to go to university, they can go to university, know, the summer university finishes around May, they can still play in the summer, they can then bank and education and then still graduate at 21, 22 and still potentially play professionally, but with having, having got that in place as well. So it’s almost like that option is there for young, for young girls.

Yeah, there’s a lot of ⁓ students within that have got professional and full-time contracts there is I think the universities certainly are flexible and The players it focuses the players as well. So, you know, they are going to get their work done because ⁓ any training session

Mm.

that they miss, I think they feel like they’re getting behind. So as sometimes exams do with that younger age group, it does give them some impetus to get their work done so that they can play their cricket at the weekends. It’s probably quite unique in that you can be a professional cricketer, you can do your university journey.

without too much disruption, whereas other sports, don’t think sometimes they permit or enable that to happen. So cricket is one of those sports that is unique in that way.

Yeah.

If you had the time again, you know, so if you had the choice of playing when you did or playing now, just bearing in mind that the conversation that we’ve had in terms of, yes, the girls have a lot more and the women have a lot more resource behind them. And yes, they can earn a lot more money, but equally pressure comes with added pressure comes with that. And, know, for some, they won’t plan ahead. So when that career finishes, they’re perhaps not ready.

to go into another career, you almost had to do that planning. What would you choose, Laura?

I don’t think that I would choose a different path actually. think I’m that sort of person that has probably got a short, medium and longer term plan here. ⁓ whilst it might challenge me from a balance point of view, it might be that you have to drop a few plates or you have to

been a few plates with a little less speed. I think that it certainly is a prudent way of living and I have a little worry about some of the players that are going through at the moment that their sole focus is on playing cricket. And I know that they get support. I know that the PCA are there in order to help them with their

Yes.

after cricket plan or they’re certainly their plan B. But I do think there is a, I probably won’t go so far as to call calling it sort of disillusion, but I think there is a naiveness about when cricket isn’t there. And identity as well is included in that as well as, you know, the

their kind of lifestyle, what is it going to look like post cricket? And the longer that you stay in this game or the longer your journey is, the more that that transition has to be really well thought through and managed. ⁓ And I just, think there will be a few casualties of that. And I hope that they do get PCA help

If you’re once you’re a member of the PCA, you remember the PCA for life. So that that’s a really good thing to have. And, you know, they do a great job, but it’s equally it’s it’s a player needs to embrace that as well. The player needs to, you know, have quite an adult ⁓ view on that. And sometimes, you know, we are talking about people who are still teenagers at the end of the day and don’t necessarily have that.

foresight to think about, okay, what if all of this comes crashing down? What am I going to do? Have I got, you know, parental support? Have I got other partner support that that could be very, you’re on fragile ground.

And there’s also a school of thought that, to get to the top and, you know, presumably those playing professional cricket, they want to get to the top, but to get there, you’ve got to focus everything on this. But the reality, like you were saying, and I don’t know the stats for the female professional game, but from the men’s side, the average player finishes at 26, which is incredibly young, isn’t it? But addressing that balance as a young person, I think is quite a difficult.

question to tackle because, you’ve got an opportunity to have this tremendous, opportunity playing cricket, traveling the world and you want to give it your all, but the stats would say that the vast majority will be kind of finished by the time they’re in the mid twenties and they have to do something else. So that prudency that you were talking about, that planning for post cricket, you know,

And I know a lot of cricketers at the time when they’re young players go, I’m going to throw them a lock stock and barrel into this and I’ll deal with that when it comes. And when it comes, it can be quite difficult, can’t it?

Yeah, I think what we’re seeing is a lot of players now taking an opportunity to do a few months in Australia or in a sunnier climate in the winter. they also need to think about how do they get…

better, how do they technically and tactically get better? And you do that, you do the hard yards in the winter, but I mean, you so enticing going away for a winter, isn’t it? But it’s also the time when you would work on yourself as a cricketer, but also perhaps and within your winter planning as a county, you have to allow one day clear per week for these players to go and pursue what it is.

So they might have a placement somewhere or they might have something that they would do on a Wednesday, let’s say, per week in the winter. So, you know, there are things in place in order for players to have the time and the space to be able to focus on what next or what would happen if we do need to pivot towards Plan B. So, yeah, don’t get me wrong, you know, put in all your eggs into one basket. Also,

Reaps rewards as well with, you know, next week ⁓ there’s the auction, isn’t there? So that’s, there’ll be a lot of anxious players right now if they’ve not got contracts, believe me, there will be that anxiety around as to what does next week, ⁓ how does next week unfold for them and where are they going to be going? Cause that provides ⁓ some anxiousness as well.

So we’ve had an email from a listener called Mark Jeffrey, who’s a parent of two girls, aged nine and 13. And both girls are playing cricket and they’re just beginning to move through the county pathways. And he wants to know how girls can be encouraged to stay in cricket as they move through those age groups, particularly during that transition from softball.

to hardball. So in your experience, Laura, what makes that stage so challenging and how can coaches and parents like Mark best support these girls during that transition?

think that this not only applies to girls. think this is a thing for boys as well. Some boys don’t want to do hardball cricket. And also some new females that are coming into it in their 20s and their 30s, even in their 50s. So the reality is that a hardball hurts. A hardball has

implications and consequences and I think the sooner if it’s a youngster the sooner that that hardball and all the kit, ⁓ all the protection that you kind of need gets introduced. It can get introduced with a softball you know that’s probably a good halfway house in getting all the pads on, putting your helmet on, getting your bats and gloves on and actually you know practicing with that.

sort of transitional ball, the incredible or whatever. So, but also there’s a bit of ⁓ in terms of how it’s framed as well. know, success, the currency of cricket is always runs and wickets, isn’t it? And I’ve learned this as I’ve now gone back to coaching at a club level. It’s actually, know, fifties and hundreds, of course they’re great.

and five-fors and of that are great. actually some people’s, I was talking to a player last night, I said, how many wickets did you get last season? She went two. Right. So this year, therefore this season, we are definitely going to be aiming for more wickets. And another example was, you know, somebody said to me last night, I’ve never been able to play the ball on the leg side. And, you know, it’s sort of probably breaking down.

process things that are going to lead to having success with a hardball and I think what we’ve got now is a good array of offers. You you’ve got the women’s softball leagues, you’ve got the festivals that they run. So we’re starting to build up an array of offers that hardball may not be the ultimate that

that everybody actually goes towards. It might be that they stick in the softball section and there is a competitive softball league that they can play in. But the sooner that people introduce it and probably stay away for ⁓ a few months, maybe even years as to how success has been defined and help them with those process things that mean that they’re not

judged and they don’t judge themselves on how they have performed on that day because arguably there’s some of the social things that players encounter in the problem solving. You don’t realise how great cricket is at being able to deal with life. You need somebody to help you unpack that and process it in a way that helps you with

I don’t know, getting from A to B. How do you get from A to B nowadays? Well, you’re problem-solving, you’re problem-solving cricket, so let’s justify the same things.

I think Mark’s also alluding to something there that crops up a lot with our clients, which is how the invite, you know, often these young players are aspirational and they aspire to play for a county and then they get into a county setup and it maybe isn’t as fun. And I think this is, you know, the same for boys as girls, but obviously the research tells us that for girls, that social element is, important. And so they might love cricket so much at their club or at their school or with their friends.

they make it into a county side and maybe it’s not so much fun anymore. It feels a bit more pressured, a bit more intense, less familiarity with the coaches, a bit less sort of chat and fun and sort of fun games. And how can girls kind of go continue through that and meet their performance goals within a performance setting while maintaining those things that are so key for their enjoyment.

Yeah, I think it’s really important to maintain that fun factor no matter what level that you’re playing at. I know that

And I can’t remember who it was, but there’s certainly somebody in the higher ranks of England men talk about, you need to imagine that you’re back in your back garden. You know, that play with no fear. Play like you create the gains, don’t you, in your back garden or for myself and my brother, was the side of our house with the bin as the wicket and the hedge.

counted as four runs and the road counted as six. you know, the pressure that the game puts on, ⁓ I think, cut through, keep it really simple and ⁓ coaches, if they’ve got anything about them, they also need to be, you know, pulling out that enjoyment factor, making sure that there’s connection within the group, making sure that people aren’t

left out making sure that people have a good time because people vote with the feet at the end of the day and there’s so much more to life and certainly as a You know in cricket we get very talented girls. They’re not just talented in cricket. They’re hockey they’re football and you know it they need to be They need to be having fun wherever they might be because they

they might actually choose football or they might choose rugby, know, those sports that are also enticing and going on a massive journey, a great journey. So, yeah, I think the seriousness also needs, you you have your time, but then also that you need to have prizes or you need to just have a little bit of fun in your session, whether that’s delivered through your humour or just a fun game to finish with.

My, my local cricket club, I’ll give them a plug now, Mobberley Mobberley cricket club. They’ve had a women’s section for I think three years and I’ve had a lot of success softball playing softball had a lot of success over that time. And they’ve got loads of players, different ages. And they’re now going through a scenario where some of those players just want to carry on playing softball because it’s

You know, they’ve, they play it for the social element and to get out of the house away from, know, giving them some breathing space away from, you know, husbands and children, all that kind of stuff. ⁓ but there’s some other players who want to go towards playing hardball cricket. ⁓ so there’s two different kind of goals now appearing in that, in that group. Do you think as a general rule, Laura, that there’s.

A bit of pressure for, female players to transition to hardball and, you know, there’s more respect playing hardball cricket or not.

undoubtedly the, you know the…

It is perceived as the hardball game is where it is, where it’s at. ⁓ But I honest, so I played the softball game and I loved my experience because I actually got to see my mum and my sister play and I played on the same team as them and my dad, proud as punch with my nephews watching from the sideline. What a message that actually sends to

you know, younger boys or people that have been in and around the game. Of course, there’s pressure to because it’s a linear pathway, isn’t it? And and the hardball is it sits at the top of the pyramid. But that is absolutely nothing insignificant about playing the softball game. You know, it’s. Having.

experience that and having gone on a bit of a journey in and around that, why not? That’s their me time. It creates connection amongst the family because it gives you a common language to speak of. And certainly, I’m sure it’s improved some car journeys. No end. But I understand that pressure and I understand how

pivotal some pivotal moments were actually getting to where you know resources are started to be tested splits start to occur, but it’s it’s probably making sure that that you are trying to fulfill everybody’s needs and if I was talking to a player last night and she’s going to play a little bit of softball cricket in order to help those who are

still on that journey, but it’s not about her. It’s about her facilitating other players. And for somebody who’s as young as what she is, that’s great if she can be aware of that and acknowledge that. ⁓ And we might have to just cross over a little bit as we grow the numbers in the game and just work on the structures. And it’s just going to take a bit of time to settle.

We’re going through teething issues here, we’re going through growth and inevitably we will hit some bumps and it’s just working your way sensibly through that.

Mm.

Yeah, because my club actually had a similar thing, Nathan. We started and we sort of, we’re probably only a couple of years further along the journey than you are. And we started to do more hardball, entered a development league. And actually, they’re now, even the ones that were skeptical about hardball, because they’d maybe, they’re maybe in their 50s, and they’d maybe watch their son play bowling a million miles an hour and it taking all day.

actually nearly I think all but one of them play hardball now. They don’t want to take up a space in the team that someone else might want, but they actually do enjoy playing hardball when they’ve been allowed to naturally find their way there rather than sort of be thrust into a net in front of a bowling machine with all the kit on for the first time when when they’re in their 50s and they’ve never played cricket before. So I think I think yeah, as you say, they’re like letting people

what they want to do but also providing the opportunities and the encouragement to put themselves outside of their comfort zone and actually they might find it quite rewarding.

Well, your club Laura Nantwich Vipers is it’s just down the road from Mobberley isn’t it? So I can see it. can see a match coming between the, between you and us. How about that softball match? One of the things that we’re really interested in exploring is whether there are challenges that women face in cricket that perhaps aren’t talked about that often or should I say experiences that are quite unique.

A Grudge Match!

to the women’s game. from your perspective, what are some of these challenges?

I think there’s probably a few and the perspective that I come at this is probably a dual perspective in that I can see it through a player’s lens, but I can also see it through somebody who has gone through this journey, was in a administrative decision making roles and I think some of the things that are not spoken about but should be

is the rights of kids, right? You know, just being labeled as men’s or it being labeled as youths that needs to modernize for a start shoes. Everything has been sort of designed with with a with a man in mind. Now, I know we’re making some headway in that Asics have brought out of women’s shoe. And I’m sure that the other manufacturers are starting to create

whether that be generic terms or whether that be male and female terms. So kit is one of the things I think that is just accepted. I think another thing that is certainly accepted is to be grateful for what the women’s game has got. Ultimately, you have got professionalism now. You’ve got you get the kit. You get

You play at the venues you get the same sort of accommodation and travel and you you know you it’s for some There is just this fine line that that is between sort of grateful and well, that’s that you know as a it’s a Let’s say a teenager early 20 something grown up now It has to be equal, know, and I

I had definite moments where I would also be kind of going, you should be grateful for that ⁓ because what you’re getting is not what I had 30 years ago, but actually it’s what you’ve grown up knowing and expecting. So that is okay for you not to be grateful for that. So it depends on where you are in this journey, depends on your kind of experience. But I also think that

let’s say this equity and equality journey that we’re on. just assuming that because we’re now entering into a professional era, that we can just repackage what we give the men and think that that’s the right thing to do for the women’s team. That would be what I would think that I’ve hopefully got a legacy now to kind of go.

Hang on a minute. that the right thing to do or is that going to not land well? And it’s all about communication. It’s all about the understanding and raising awareness as to maybe an example might be ultimately what we’re to head towards is professionalism. So everybody have in their own room.

But actually, is that right? Are the players wanting to be on their own? Or actually, do they mind if they buddy up with somebody and have a pal to chat to whilst they’re hydrating at the end of the day? So there’s probably just some things that, from an equity and equality point of view, it’s just not a…

We’re not trying to replicate the men’s structure. We are trying to think about how do we professionalise the game. And football and rugby are going through this. And what’s really interesting is just to see some of the things, some of the developments that are going on in football, like the London City Lionesses, separate, no men’s club. Aston Villa now starting to kind of come away, also they’ve got ⁓ their own MD.

And just sort of seeing what that journey actually looks like without something to compare it to and something to think that that is the right way to do things. So I’m fascinated as well as very curious as to what’s going to happen in that space. And don’t get me wrong, The Hundred has been a brilliant thing for the women’s game. But I think we should.

need to keep close to it to kind of understand at what point is it not helping the women’s game ⁓ or is it stifling as you know as we spoke about earlier. ⁓ But I think at this point in time as we are still growing in the women’s game these double-headers are the right things to do but there is certainly ⁓

keep a close eye on what that actually looks like because we do get different people coming to watch. In the Hollies there is a different set of people that come to watch a test match compared to sit there and watch a T20.

I think that bit about being grateful for what you’ve got is really interesting because I’m in Middlesex and so our men’s teams pay, I think in the Middlesex prem they kind of play 18 games a season on a Saturday, all day on a Saturday night. And the women, there’s a T20, a 30 over and a 40 over league and they maybe get 10 games a season. And so my kind of argument, I was having it, I’ve had it out with a few people to be honest, my kind of argument is that

every season there and I think the women’s games have cancelled more easily because groundsmen often aren’t there on a Sunday people don’t umpires can’t necessarily like I just think that they so they’re playing at least half if not a quarter of the quantity of cricket matches every single year and so they’re just slipping further and further behind so my argument was sort of well I think

Sundays just need to be women in women’s cricket in the way that nationwide Saturday is men’s Saturday cricket It needs to women’s Sunday cricket and they said what about the cup? And I was like well the whole point is that sacrifices need to be made at some point It’s great that they’ve had the cup for however many years But and I’m not I’m not saying you should get rid of the cup. But if you take a cold hard look at the situation

some things might have to be sacrificed in order to get the women’s game to that more equitable level and it might feel like they’re losing out on something, it might, but equally women’s cricket is held back by some of those kind of quite…

sort of old fashioned, long standing traditions.

Yeah, I agree. think it’s a

It’s real tension, isn’t it, when clubs progress, men’s sides progress in the cups and there is clashes. Because who’s brave enough to go, you know what, the women’s side are going to play at the main ground on that day, and you’ve got the men’s first team in that Cup game has got to play at the second ground. Because the second ground is always substandard, is always not as good as the main ground. So yeah. ⁓

Who knows how long that tension and those situations will last for.

You’ve worked with clubs and county programs for many years. What does a good club look like when it genuinely prioritizes girls cricket rather than like we alluding to before, just it feeling like an add on to the boys section.

So I think there’s a number of things and it’s hitting a sweet spot because as we’re finding out from women’s sport and the success of women’s sport, there is A, a place and B, there is investment that will come if people are prepared to go on that journey.

You know there’s a moral case, there’s a business case. Maybe there isn’t a legal case, but I know that the ECB are introducing ⁓ mandatory women’s teams and girls teams, I think, if you’re going to have a Premier League status. ⁓ So of course, yes, that’s a stick approach. But actually, it might just be the thing that ⁓ means that a club diversifies and ⁓

becomes the focus of a community because ultimately that’s how you survive is and and therefore thrive is if you do hit that sweet spot in your community. So get more people down at your club. How do you get more people down at your club? Well, you put more things on. You don’t put more more men’s cricket on because there’s probably not, ⁓ you know, that they’re

They’ve got their day, they’ve got their Saturday and then they’re certainly now ⁓ not to play in Saturday and Sundays and training twice a week. They’ve got other commitments that they also want to be doing. So, ⁓ you know, there is that equality piece again, boys and girls start with your your All Stars program and really build up from there, but really keep ⁓

close attention and devote resources, get your right people in your right places, have your role models, link with your county boards, link with the local schools. There is so much to this and I’ve so often seen if a key person leaves or if you get a bit of a falling out, that can have such a, you know, it’s not just a ripple, that’s a wave.

⁓ And sometimes that has a real detrimental impact on the women’s section. So don’t think that just because you’ve got two teams and you’ve got a couple of girls teams, you’ve hit it, you’ve done it, it’s solved. It really does need to have attention. And there’s decades of work to be done here before it’s embedded.

With the county programs, you talked there about having the right person. I think sometimes there can be a sense that girls or women’s cricket as a coach is a stepping stone to boys and men. So you might start as the county under 11 girls and then hopefully you’ll be a county under 11 boys. How do you get the right people in place that are genuinely the right people for those roles and aren’t seeing it as a sort of way to move up the ladder?

⁓ I think that’s probably the real $64 million question in that how do you find those right people because ultimately you’re probably going to go through a number of people and hopefully you keep some people who are genuinely on this journey because they they buy into it. They’ve got a daughter. ⁓ know they’ve got that vested interest in

Mm.

in making sure that this works. I think, you know, regardless of your gender, that you’ve got to have a passion for what you do. You’ve got to have a passion for what it actually means. But there is probably a little bit of a place for those who are going to use it as a stepping stone. And you probably can’t.

turned down two years of having a great person around, but hopefully their legacy or their impact is genuine or it leaves good fundamentals or a good basis and a platform for then, know, others to come and take it and move it forward. So it happens. It happens. And the women’s game is definitely used as a stepping stone.

you know, that is ultimately what we find ⁓ in any level. And yeah, I think people now are sort of seeing the women’s game for what it is. There’s a difference ⁓ coaching females to coaching males. you know, some really enjoy being in that female space and will always be in that female space.

You mentioned earlier, Laura, at the start, investment word. And for me, you know, this plays out here. So what’s going through my mind listening to that conversation is that there is an argument in all cricket, actually, for the better coaches to be down the pathway, you know, get all the remedial work done and dusted. I slightly disagree with that in so much as I think you’d want age and stage appropriate coaches and also pairing up coaches who

You know, enjoy working in a certain environment. Now that could be working with a under 15s boy team. It could be working with a women’s adult team. But I think that the investment sorts this out in so much and with investment comes respect, doesn’t it? So if these roles are properly, ⁓ invested in, then respect comes with that and people are more likely to settle in a role.

that they want to settle in. They want to be in an area that they want to coach in and that they don’t feel the need to move on because it is a stepping stone. And I would love it for the, the, in fact, the whole game, actually, I would love it, men and women for, you know, the well-paid respected jobs, not just to be at the pointy end, but to be in all the different facets. So you’ve got exceptional coaches in lots of different areas because

I think the game requires that and particularly so in the women’s game. I hate it actually, when people say it’s a stepping stone, know, coaching an under 11 team or, an under 13 women’s, it’s not any less important than coaching a professional team. It’s just a different part of, on the pathway. Um, anyway, rant over. now alongside your coaching career, Laura you’ve completed a masters.

dissertation looking at female coaches actually working in that professional game. Can you talk us through, what are the most striking insights were that you discovered from that research?

Yeah, so I spent probably a good six months actually looking at this. ⁓ It’s been a passion project of mine. And I think it stems back to when I retired and I was trying to re-engage with the game. And basically, one of the players ⁓

was having a bit of technical trouble and she bypassed me. She went to the bloke. And I was like, right, OK. ⁓ So having now the opportunity to do a dissertation on it, the things that came out of this is a modern coach needs to be able to add to a session. And when I say needs to be able to add to the session,

they need to be able to dogstick well. They need to be able to mitt well. They need to be able to hit a ball well. And this is probably just where the women’s game is at at the moment, is that in order to, I suppose, hold your own or your credibility to not pan immediately is you have to have that skill set.

you have to be able to have that physicality. And for some people that takes a little bit of time to acquire. If you’ve played, let’s say, played in decades gone by, you might not have that. So it’s hard. It’s hard because the modern requirement is to be able to add to a session and players want and need you to deliver.

immediately. I think as well anything if you’ve got an England cap or if you’ve got any sort of international recognition that is a golden ticket. ⁓ You know that gives you immediate respect from anybody that you encounter on a professional level. ⁓ It is also a bit of a substitute for not having some coach education.

badges ⁓ or not perhaps doing some CPD ⁓ I think as well what I my study also found is Women and some women are not great at this like the you’ve got a network. So You know, we know there’s an old boys network that exists ⁓ We and it might be that this is again something that I might try and

established and I talked to those who kindly participated is to have some sort of network that we create and I know that there has been some work done by the ECB on this but it’s something that’s really crucial because not only you’re going to rely on your network for technical and tactical support, emotional support, certainly from a female point of view you’re going to rely on. One of the other things that ⁓ I wrote about and found is

is, I suppose, a concept of sponsors. So somebody that is going to put you forward for a role or give you the confidence to apply for the for a role. people that came up time and time again in my interviews were Charlotte Edwards. So Charlotte Edwards has definitely sponsored a number of female coaches.

⁓ You know players that she’s played with on her journey that she’s she’s enticed and they’ve stepped over into into coaching Paul Shaw done a massive amount for the women’s game and John Stanworth and You know, I have to give them credit as to what they’ve done, you know male and female so this is not just a female sponsor sponsoring a female this is about having male allies ⁓ as well, so

And I think my study is, it is time bound because ultimately in five to 10 years, the physicality side of things is not going to be something that is non-negotiable, it is something that’s going to be standard. So the players that fall out of the game over the next five to 10 years will have those skills. So it won’t be a thing. ⁓

⁓ and it won’t be something that, well, just because you’re a bloke means that you’ve got the physicality to be able to dogstick or hit. It will also, you know, the assumption will be there that they can ultimately perform and add to a session. So I think it’s made my ⁓ appreciation of the female coaches who are currently in the game

go up because I think that they’ve encountered a lot of barriers, a lot of challenges. But equally, I also want to help those who are coming up through to kind of go, you just need to be aware. Don’t worry when this happens to you. Have a little, make sure you’ve got somebody who you chat to this about and reflect with them on it, but then move forward. It’s not important. It doesn’t matter when you get to this other stage or

at this time of the season or if you get into this team. So it’s been really cool to do a study and I hope that some of the things that I found will help some people and certainly grow the number of female. Ultimately, I want females to be present in the female game. But what would be fantastic is having more females in the men’s game as well.

I was just going to ask that actually because I think it’s something we see, don’t we? We still see women’s sides coached by men. It’s probably more, I would say more than half, I would have thought was still coached predominantly by men. But you see so few women breaking into the men’s game. Do you think that’s because they don’t want to? Or do you think it’s because they’re not given the opportunities or the support to get there?

I think it’s probably quite individual as to what, why. I think it was Emma Hayes, wasn’t it? Because she was touted as perhaps the right candidate to go and manage a men’s side. And she came out saying, well, actually, no, I’ve reached the peak. The peak is the Chelsea women’s team, wasn’t it?

I think there is definitely a difference in being immersed into a men’s side than a female side. Sarah Taylor is certainly changing things in that respect. And I’d probably put her and Charlotte Edwards in a bracket where I don’t know whether we will ever have people like that who have lived

on equal sides of the women’s game or the game of cricket in amateur days, you know, and professional days, as well as, ⁓ you know, just being aware as to it’s as much as coaching as it is about people management and using exceptional people skills to

ultimately lead to success.

makes a massive difference to coaches is becoming world-class as deliverers because you need to give that experience to the players. So totally get that. guess on that point, what, what advice would you give to female coaches to, become how, how do they, how do you become a great deliverer of a, of a cricket ball, whether that’s giving a catch or giving a, a bowling delivery to a batter, any practical tips there?

Mm-hmm.

The earlier that you can start to do that, the better. Interestingly, I think we’re, and this is certainly the environment that Ali Maiden has started to create in Warwickshire is that, you know, there is a, and I think this has also been created by one-to-ones is that the coach is the deliverer of balls.

And actually, you know, if you talk about having the quantity and the quality, if you want quantity, then you’re going to need to find that in another way, because the coach’s shoulder can only be good for, you know, there’s no directives is there? But shoulders will start to hang off after about three hours of slinging in the net. So the sooner that the female players can start to add to sessions by, you know what, I’ve done my bowling, I’ll sling for a bit.

⁓ or I’ll go and do a little bit of work from a development point of view, work with the academy, grab a mitt and all of those sorts of things. So, you know, it needs to be part of your armoury. There needs to be a mitt in your bag, needs to be a slinger in your bag and just do it. ⁓ You know, it does take a little bit of practice, doesn’t it, with the dog stick? ⁓ But, you know, anybody who wants to… acquire

that skill will acquire it and it’s just it will just take a little bit time to do that so the sooner the better and just go and practice practice practice practice.

I actually think there’s a bit of a market for some, so it probably sounds a bit patronising, but some short courses on using a sidearm with the dog stick because the new ECB regs came out this year and I think it was on the back of the death of that boy in Australia. It was about, it was actually limiting who appropriate use of one and actually kind of discouraging people to use them in nets who haven’t used them before.

But as you say, you need to do it to get better at it. you know how the ECB or they do those sort of like short courses on pace or split, know, just little CPD. I think there’s a huge market for, for kind of little CPD events with those skills for coaches. Cause as you know, as you say, those that have played in the, it played might be able to do it, but actually coaches coming through a space to kind of learn the pitfalls, what’s safe, what’s not depending on the person that you’re coaching.

Hmm.

I think could actually be quite useful for people, particularly for women coming through.

Yeah, definitely I’ve had a few close encounters when I used to do it to my eldest son. I bowled him a few beamers Ultimately, it might be what he faces, but equally, you know, it’s not going to be helpful for him in the long term. So, yeah, definitely. ⁓

Mm.

you

The art of doing that is probably a course in waiting.

Mm.

I went the other way, Laura, when I started dog-sticking for the first time, I was hitting my toes. I couldn’t stop hitting my toes. Absolutely useless practice for the batter. But yeah, what did I do? I took myself off and spent a couple of days just bowling at stumps. And it’s like anything, isn’t it? The more, like you said, the more you practice, it suddenly clicks. So what I’m hearing is get out and practice and develop it. More generally.

you

Laura, what advice would you give to somebody, a woman who’s aspiring to coach in a professional game?

I’ll probably use the words of a lot of the female coaches that I interviewed in that you just got to get out there. ⁓ Almost channel, ⁓ I don’t know, your inner extrovert, somebody who is prepared to go chat to new people. ⁓

Just go and strike up conversations with whoever that might be. I think the ultimate advice would be get out there and coach and acquire knowledge, acquire experience. It doesn’t all have to go perfect. That’s probably some of the things that puts females off. That’s not just

coaches, that’s players because they’re perfectionists. And arguably, you know, that provides such richness for reflection and learning is when it doesn’t go so well. So don’t be frightened of anything. Just dive right in and immerse yourself in whatever experiences that you can get yourself involved in.

It’s interesting you say that I think there’s been some research around like applying for jobs. And if there’s like 10 essential criteria, you probably know what I’m talking about. know, women will want to meet 10 of those before they apply for the role. Whereas men like if they meet five of them, they’ll give it a go anyway. So it’s that sense of sort of backing yourself right.

Totally, I did it the other day myself. You read down the list of essential criteria and you get to something where you go, ⁓ and you go, no, okay, next. And yeah, it’s just, I suppose anything that you think you can do.

you know, because you have the character or you have the personality to just give it a go, then what’s the worst thing that can happen? ⁓ You know, that is definitely something that I’m really trying to now channel myself, but you can’t help yourself. just can’t help yourself. If you see that you need five years of experience in a certain industry, you’re going, ⁓ no, right, that’s me out. Yeah.

Mm.

Probably should be kind of drawing things to a close shortly, but, know, talking about, you are, I think, coming into a new phase of your career here. Much of your life actually in cricket has been, it’s been driven by a desire to push the women’s game forward. So as you, as you think about that journey that you’ve been on, how has that shaped your…

identity, your sense of identity and also what does that identity look like going forwards for you?

Yeah, so I obviously been doing a lot of reflection and ⁓ I think there’s a definite identity change coming up for me and it’s not much of my life, Nathan, it’s all of my life. has been about being immersed and being a cricketer and it’s about being an ambassador for the women’s game. And it’s about trying to

move out of the way obstacles or not get too sensitive when it doesn’t quite go your way or somebody makes a comment. So, you know, I am now into a phase where it’s now what I do rather than who I am. You know, so the coaching that I’m doing is what I do on a Thursday night. It’s what I try to do.

of a Saturday morning, you know, we’re running a few fitness sessions, which has been great. The enthusiasm from the Vipers has been brilliant and they’ve really embraced me as a coach as well. So, yeah, it’s really interesting because I’ve definitely had a few conversations with those who have been involved in the game and it does, there’s a cost to it because it’s not just

what you do, it is that it’s your life. And there’s not quite the off button. You’re constantly trying to make sure that you’re up to date with what’s going on in Australia, what’s going on in India. And actually, it’s quite nice not to have to think, right, what’s going on in the Australia-India test match? Because the relevance of that to the

the audience that I’ve got now is, could be there, but more often than not, then they don’t know what’s going on in the international scene. yeah, I’m shifting now to having a bit more perspective, a bit more balance. And that’s not to say that I’m leaving cricket and parking it. still want to be involved in it.

There’s a new phase for me coming. Don’t know what that is as yet, ⁓ but certainly I’m going to take my cricket skills and going to take my cricket experience and hopefully apply it in a new industry.

I’m trying to read my own writing here, Laura, because I’ve scribbled something down and I can’t, I can’t, that’s it. Okay. Yeah. So you have had different roles in the game. Cricket has been, your life. Has your relationship with cricket and your love of cricket changed as you’ve gone through those different roles?

Great question. the reason I retired from the game is I lost my passion for it. I lost respect for it. I lost the love of it. ⁓ think that, interestingly, probably, rather than just kind of go, right, you know, I’m retiring, I perhaps should have taken a break. I was also struggling with a bit of form. ⁓

and everybody else around me seem to be just kind of going onto the next level. So yeah, it is something that has provided me with rich experiences and given me great skills, also, it’s also been giving me some

sleepless nights as well as, you know, and that’s whether that’s be, you know, who to release or, God, I hope she’s okay, that sort of thing. So you care passionately about the experiences of the players that are coming through and, some of hardest things that you kind of done is make decisions on people’s futures. ⁓ You know, that’s real responsibility and I care passionately about how that was.

that was done, particularly to those on academies who have invested so much. And that’s not them investing. That’s their parents investing with making sure that they were at training twice a week, coming from miles and miles away, and giving up just in their life and their work circumstances. So yeah.

The love will always be there. It’ll always be there. I’ll always be watching my son’s play. I’ll always be trying to, you if my sister or my mum said she wanted to play again, I’ll always try and facilitate that. But yeah, it’s probably now getting to a stage where, ⁓ you know, I’ll have a, let’s call it a healthier relationship with it, rather than it controlling me and being all consuming.

can relate to that Laura. So final question, if we sat down again in 10 years time, and I’m being presumptuous there, Briony you know, this going for 10 years, podcast, but if we did, what would you hope to see in girls and women’s cricket and what needs to happen between now and then to make that a reality?

I’m

⁓ I think that…

There is some sense of just being patient with where we’re currently at. And it probably goes back to a little bit as what I was saying earlier in that if we think that we are heading in a direction just to replicate, then that’s the wrong direction to go. I think that women’s sport has just

the getting it right in other sports. you know, having a blend of that entertainment side of things, I think could be where the women’s game kind of goes. ⁓ But that is going to take a little bit of time before that can be realised or that can be ⁓ the path that we go down. I I loved when

You

Keeping close to those who are watching the game and knowing that there is a different experience. You go to any sort of grounds on a Hundred day. It’s such a different experience to experience in the ground on a test match, in particular a men’s test match day. And I hope that those who are in positions of power are brave enough to do something different with the women’s game and to

be aware as to what the research is saying, be aware as to what the players, how the players actually want to be, their game to be presented. I think that it could, it’s limitless as to where it could go, but equally it has to be really sensitive and sensible about the investment. So ultimately, ⁓ a…

less reliance on central and local funding. you know, 10 years time, that might be too soon for it to be standard standing on its own two feet. I think it’s always going to some seed funding, just like the men’s game does. And you know that, I think people always think and if you look at in football, you know, there’s billionaires investing in into these football clubs well in 10 years time.

Hopefully we’ve got more of Mrs. Kang who invests at London City Lionesses. I think there’s, you you are starting to see players who have now got a good amount of money. Karen Carney’s invested, hasn’t she, in Birmingham City women’s football. So, you know, it can probably come full circle and, you know, you’re perhaps hoping that the likes, maybe the likes of Nat Siver Brunt, she might own a franchise in 10 years time. Who knows?

Hmm.

That would be great, wouldn’t it? That’d be a great story. it’s got a partnership with Sweaty Betty, or it’s got ⁓ a partnership with a female brand. So those are the sorts of things, I think, about being patient as we go through that journey and embracing and moving towards. And it might actually be that this is how the men’s game shapes as well.

and it not just be about the cricket only, it’s about bringing the family along and just being a different presentation of the game that we know and we love.

Okay.

Nyeh.

you

Thank ⁓ you both.

Thank you.

Now, before we finish, just a quick mention that we’re going to be running an online workshop later this month called Making Preseason Count. And it’s designed for cricketers aged between 13 and 18 who want more clarity and structure in their preparation for the upcoming season. So if you’d like to find out more about that or to book a place and head over to CricketMind.Online

/Events And those details will be in the show notes. Okay. Next week, we’re going to be joined by Somerset and Scotland fielding coach, Paul Tweddle. And there we’ll be diving into the art of fielding, how it’s coached at professional level and how players can develop elite fielding skills and habits, matter what level they play at. So we look forward to seeing you then.

Briony let’s call that stumps.

Yeah, see you next time.