The Dark Art of Wicketkeeping

Have you heard of Chris Scott, the ex Durham Wicketkeeper?

No, I don’t think I have.

Well he once dropped Brian Lara when he was on about 20 and he turned round to first slip and said the immortal words, “he’ll probably go on to score 100 now”.

And did he?

No, he didn’t get a hundred, but he did get five of them in one innings. So Chris Scott as keeper dropped Brian Lara on 20 and Lara went on to score a world record 501 for a first-class game. It certainly is.

is brutal.

But guess that’s the thing about wicket-keeping, there’s just no place to hide.

Yeah, you’re not wrong.

So it’s a good job we’ve got a professional keeper on today’s show to talk us through all those ups and downs.

We better get talking to her then.

I’m Briony Brock

and I’m Nathan Wood.

Welcome to the Cricket Mind Podcast.

So today’s guest is Ellie Threlkheld one of the leading wicket keepers in the domestic game. Ellie captains Lancashire women and has been on the fringes of the England team over the past few years. And this summer, she’s going to be playing in the hundred for MI London, all of which gives her a cutting edge perspective on the demands of elite performance in the modern game.

And alongside her cricket, she’s also got a real interest in performance psychology, which makes her the perfect guest for this podcast and today’s conversation. So Ellie, welcome to the show. Great to have you on.

Thanks for having me guys, looking forward to it.

So Ellie, I’ve heard wicket keeping described as one of the dark arts, probably because most people don’t know anything about it. So can you give us a ⁓ better understanding of the reality of being a wicket keeper and also perhaps highlight what most people misunderstand about this so-called dark art?

Yeah, do you know what? actually really enjoy the fact that it’s like that. think, yeah, for any youngster, I think that’s the key that you’ve got to want to do it. But yeah, I guess like one of the challenges is that you’re involved all the time and you’ve got to be switched on at every moment really. But again, that’s the bit that I really enjoy. I remember like way back when I started playing cricket, I was a fielder and used to bowl a bit, but we won’t talk about that. yeah, when I was a fielder, I used to like…

Yeah, I get a bit bored really, whereas as a wicket keeper, you’re always involved and even if it’s just a fielder throwing the ball into you, you’ve got something to do all the time. And I guess like we play quite a lot of 50-over cricket and three hours, 15 minutes or whatever you get to bowl your overs in. It’s a really long time to be out in the field, but if you’re involved all the time, it’s brilliant. And you feel like a real part of the team. And I guess there’s a big debate about.

whether a wicket keeper needs to be the heartbeat of the team, if you like. where I sit on that is it’s my natural personality and I really enjoy that side of it. And that sort of leadership role that I’ve got in the team as a wicket keeper in general, regardless of whether I’m captain or not, I thrive on that. And yeah, it’s something I really enjoy doing.

Do you think then, Ellie, that being a wicket keeper requires more than just the physical attributes of being in good positioning, good at catching, good movement, good hand eye? It requires a sort of personality element that maybe other roles in the team don’t.

Yeah, I guess so. I think the physical side is something that I’ve developed over a long time, guess, particularly becoming professional and getting full-time S &C programmes. Again, keeping for three hours, 15 minutes for an average human being might seem quite a lot physically, but I guess the hard work in the fitness space that you’ve got to do as a professional athlete and that I have done over the last few years means that actually that doesn’t really bother me anymore.

And in terms of like the physical attributes that make up a wicket keeper, think quite often like youngsters who are good fielders will often make good wicket keepers. think people who naturally move well and naturally catch well will be brilliant. And I think particularly stood back in men’s cricket quite often, you do see sort of almost part-time wicket keepers who are good natural catchers who can do a job there. In terms of the personality thing, I get asked this quite a lot actually.

I think it’s a real benefit if somebody in the team who’s a wicket keeper’s got that personality and drives standards and gives the team energy. I think that’s huge and that’s very much me. But you also see some people who aren’t like that. And I think by asking them to be that, it will really drain their energy and then it will almost take away from the wicket keeping. And I think if you are in a situation like that, you might have a brilliant keeper who’s quite quiet, but actually…

someone else in the team can give that energy. So I don’t think it’s essential, but I do think it’s really beneficial. And for me, that is naturally me. So I really thrive off that and try and give the team as much energy and try and drive that energy as much as I can.

That’s really interesting observation that you mentioned about. It’s your personality. Cause Jamie Smith in the winter time in the ashes got a bit of stick, didn’t he for being a bit quiet as the wicket keeper. Where do you stand on that? Would you, because that’s his natural demeanour, do you think that’s okay? Or do you think sometimes, particularly when things are going against you, that you have to kind of almost flex into a different

personality just to get the team going. What’s your thoughts on that, Ellie?

Yeah, like I said, I think it’s really beneficial if the wicket keeper does offer that. But I think by asking someone to be someone they’re not, it’s really going to drain their energy and it’s probably going to take a lot of energy away from what they would use to be a really good wicket keeper. So I would never be one for asking someone to be someone they’re not. But I do think if that’s your natural personality, then it’s a real benefit. think, yeah, if you are in a situation where somebody is a little bit quieter behind the stumps, hopefully you’ve got other people in the group who can…

you can give that and give that sort of noise. I think the other thing, like energy can be shown in different ways as well. Like it doesn’t have to just be a voice, actually, like demanding the ball and running to the stumps and even just taking the bails off sometimes, it creates pressure and it gives you that presence behind the stumps without necessarily having to do it with your voice, if that makes sense.

What are the things that people just don’t see, would you say, or even appreciate when they’re watching a keeper? Because there’s a lot of people who don’t really understand it. So, you what are they missing, Ellie?

I think quite often if a wicket keeper has a really good day, they do go unnoticed. I think people who don’t quite understand wicket keeping, you come off and you might think, I’ve had a really, really good day today, but actually you’ve had no opportunities to take a catch or a stump in. So you don’t really get much praise and no one really notices, but actually you’ve had a really, really tidy day. Everything’s just melted into the middle of your gloves. You’ve cleaned up a lot of poor throws or bowlers have bowled down leg side and you’ve tidied up really well.

Yeah.

Like only really you know as a keeper that you’ve had a really good day there. Whereas actually you might take a really regulation offside take when a batter’s ran past one and take a stumping and then all of a sudden all your teammates get around you and high five you when there’s a wicket. And actually that’s probably the easiest part of your day. So I guess it’s a weird thing that, yeah, no one really quite understands, but I think you know as a wicket keeper and I guess keeping coaches are few and far between, but they would know as well.

Yeah. As a keeper, you are involved in every ball of the innings. So you can’t just slope off the final leg and do some grazing like a fast bowler does and recharge and then refocus. So how do you manage your concentration over such a long period of time? And crucially, how do you stay focused when it matters for each and every ball?

Yeah, I think it’s a real skill, to be honest. think for me, it’s like making sure I’m in the battle and in the competition of the game. think the hardest part to manage is actually when you don’t see the ball for a bit. And I think in 50 over cricket, it might sound really contradicting because it’s a longer format of the game, but it’s often easier because batters might leave the ball or you actually see quite a lot of the ball. So like focus and concentration in those games is a little bit easier because you’re almost expecting the ball more.

Whereas you might be playing on a really flat wicket in a T20 and you don’t see the ball for the first eight overs, you’ve got no idea whether you stood in the right place when you stood back to the seamers because you’ve not seen the ball. And all of a sudden someone nicks off and you’re expected to catch it. So managing those sort of almost, I’d call them like silent periods of not seeing the ball is really, really difficult. And do you know what? As much as I hate doing it, I think a great way to sort of practice that is in the nets. I think you’ll speak to most wicket keepers and they’ll absolutely hate doing it.

because the batter hits the ball all time. But actually, one bowler might throw one down leg side and all of sudden everyone expects you to take it. But sometimes that’s the harsh reality of the game. So I do really value that as a practice as much as I dislike it, combined with obviously technical work and getting volume in where possible. But yeah, I do think that’s the hardest part of the game. I think for me, it’s almost trying to treat each ball as an event and trying to make sure that you are ready every single ball.

I think the periods in between balls are really important to switch off. It’s almost like a little switch in your head. So you’re really on when it matters, but actually in between balls, you might be having a laugh and a joke with your mates or you might be thinking about the game when that bowler’s running in, all of a sudden you’re on then and it’s just managing that, which can be difficult over long periods of time, but I guess something you get used to, you don’t always get it right. And all of a sudden one might just…

beat the bat and you’re not quite expecting it and it sort of wakes you up a little bit. yeah, I guess that the more games you play, the more you get used to it.

You think

then on the whole it’s more draining keeping than it is fielding because you do have fewer opportunities to sort of switch off.

Yeah, definitely. think my role at Lancashire at the minute, obviously, I captain as well. So after a day of 50 over cricket, I bat at five, I’m keeping and I’m captain. I am mentally exhausted. We played yesterday and today I just feel absolutely shattered, but not necessarily physically, mentally. And that is because you’re switched on all day. Not only are you thinking about the situation of the game in the batting innings, you’re thinking about catching the ball and you’re wicket keeping, but you’ve also got the team to think about as well.

But weirdly, I do think that makes me a better wicket keeper. think the periods of time I’ve struggled over the last couple of years is when I haven’t been captain. Because I’m sure we’ll touch on this in a minute, but almost that difference between instinct and when you’re thinking about it. When I don’t have anything to think about when I’m not captain, all of sudden I start thinking about what my body’s doing when I wicket keep and I never do that. Whereas when I’m captain, I’m thinking about who’s going to bowl the next over or where the angles are in the field.

There’s all sorts going on in my brain that actually my keeping is very instinctive and it just sort of happens. So I do think it’s a really positive thing. But yeah, it’s definitely mentally draining. I think then it’s really important on my days off that I do something completely different and I’m able to switch off from cricket. I guess that looks different for everyone. I’m not one to sit down and watch TV and sit still. I’ve got quite a lot on my plate, but…

I like to do something completely different on my days off to make sure I’m then mentally fresh for when I go back in tomorrow.

So from a draining perspective, mentally draining perspective, is it tougher than batting? Do you find?

Yeah, I think it is, yeah, particularly with captaining as well, think there’s, yeah, there’s like in 50 over cricket, especially, and to be fair, T20, even though it’s shorter, you’ve got a lot more decisions to make quite quick, quite quickly. And yeah, I guess there’s a lot that comes with the captaincy as well as wicket keeping. You’ve often got almost the weight of the team on your shoulders. You’re almost thinking about every single decision you make when you walk off the field as well. And it is quite hard to switch off.

I guess when you’re batting, it’s very much more of an individual skill. Yes, you’re trying to do the job the team needs you to do in that moment, but actually the reflection bit is probably on you and your performance. Whereas actually when I walk off from a fielding innings, the last thing I’m thinking about is how I kept wicket It’s all the decisions I’ve made as well. So yeah, I do think it is more draining the fielding and the keeping side of things.

Do find that it’s also can be isolating at all since you’re kind the only one on the team?

Yeah, definitely. think that’s something that I’ve struggled with when I was younger, actually. think I’m in such a fortunate position now that our head coach, Chris Reid, is one of the best wicket keepers that has been around really. I guess from, I feel so valued in that space because he wants to talk about wicket keeping all the time, which is amazing. But as a youngster growing up, you’re in environments where there’s one head coach for a squad of 15 players.

it’s quite hard to get any time to work on your wicket keeping. And equally, if that coach knows nothing about wicket keeping, you do feel a little bit undervalued and quite often you might just be stuck at the back of a net and that’s even if you do any wicket keeping at all really. So yeah, I guess as I’ve got older, it’s got easier because there’s more specialists in that space, more hands-on coaches, professional environments and stuff. But as a kid, was pretty tough really and I had to sort of drive that myself.

As a 12 year old, it’s quite hard to do that. Whereas as I got a little bit older, it was like, can please, can you get in 10 minutes early and do a bit of keeping with me? And I think that’s something so important out there for coaches when you’ve got young keepers is like, just give them a little bit of time. Like you don’t have to be a world-class keeping coach, but throwing them 10 minutes of underarms is going to really, really help them get a bit of volume, create a safe technique to build confidence, to get better, but also to make them feel really valued as well.

Yeah, I was going to say, what would your advice be to coaches who are sort of managing a team, maybe under 12s, under 13s, especially in the winter, maybe doing nets and stuff? on your probably best day is that you’re letting the keeper keep in the net. Worst day is you’re trying to make them bowl. They can’t bat for the whole session. So what advice would you give to coaches who are trying to create an environment that’s inclusive of keeping and developing keeping skills?

Yeah, I said this before about keeping in a net. think it’s as much as I really don’t like doing it. I think it’s so, so valuable. It’s the most realistic practice you’ll get with a batter in front. And yeah, I think it’s really valuable for the concentration element as well. So I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t go away from that, but I think there’s also a really important piece there around making sure that they’ve got a good technique. think I see it quite often. I work quite a bit with our pathway girls and young wicket keepers.

Quite often they’re a little bit scared to stand up to the stumps. And I think that comes from potentially a bit of, ⁓ just going that net and keep in there when the bowlers are a little bit fast and they’ve not been exposed to that much. Whereas actually, if you spare 10 minutes of your time, it might be getting in 10 minutes early and getting them in 10 minutes early, or even just 10 minutes at the end of a session to just throw underarm feeds from one knee on a good length to teach them to rise with the ball and get a bit of exposure of them standing up to the stumps. All of a sudden…

not only are they catching more balls to get a bit of volume under the belts, they’re creating a real safe technique that’s going to allow them to catch it. Because I think one thing you don’t want to do is rush them into standing up to the stumps to quick bowlers and make them scared because all of a sudden the confidence is going to be on the floor. And that doesn’t need to be loads of your time. It just needs to be 10 or 15 minutes each session. And I think, like I said, not only is that going to make them better and give them a technique, it’s also going to make them feel really valued.

you all of sudden combining that with the stuff in the net and you should see some, some really good progression.

So you did allude to it a bit before. think you said that you like to be instinctive when you’re keeping, because you’ve got all this stuff going on. But talking about advice to young keepers, as the bowlers running in, how much would you advise them that they are, you know, when they’re in their development, they’re thinking, they’re actively thinking and planning about things like their technique or the batter’s movement or the bowlers variations.

What advice would you give to a young keeper, Ellie, who perhaps hasn’t built up that instinct yet?

Yeah, I think there’s a really fine balance with it. think the ideal situation would be in training. You probably are talking quite technical and you’re thinking quite a lot about your technique because ultimately that’s probably the only way you’re going to get better. But you want to then step onto the field and almost remove that and almost just let it happen. And that’s easier said than done and you’ve almost got a trust that that works, that works going to transfer and it might take a little bit of time. But yeah, I think.

If you’re thinking too much about your technique in a game, you’re going to forget the one most important thing is to just watch the ball. And I think for me, the main thing that helps me keep well is when I’m relaxed. I think all of a sudden, when you tense up, your body moves slower, you grab at the ball, the ball bounces out your hands, all of these things. And that then creates mistakes, which then makes you more tense and then it gets worse and worse and worse. And we’ve all been there. But ultimately, when you’re at your best, you’re probably really relaxed.

Your body moves nice and fast and it’s almost, I get that feeling that I’m wicket keeping in slow motion. And it sounds a little bit stupid because you think about wicket keeping, you think about moving quick and being sharp and stuff. But actually when I’m at my best, my body’s just so relaxed and the ball melts into my gloves and I’m probably moving quick without, without thinking about it. I don’t think I would be able to be in that place if I was thinking about, about technical stuff. But then you might drop a ball and you might.

have a little think about, why might I have dropped that ball? Or you might find yourself just rising a little bit too early and think, I need to do this. And I think having an awareness about your technique, which you will build over time as a youngster is important, but it’s almost being able to separate that in a game and not overthinking it, which is a whole skill, isn’t it? It’s so easy to say, don’t think in a game. If I said to you, don’t think of a pink elephant, we’re all probably sat there thinking of a pink elephant, right? Like, it’s such a fine balance, but I think if you can sort of encourage. ⁓

like simplicity in a game and worry about the technical side of things at training, that’s probably the ideal case.

Yeah. And I think that is something we’ve talked about in previous episodes and certainly kind of through our work is this idea of the training process, you know, where you’re in, you’re doing intentional training, working on skills, technical work, and then the trusting process, which is in games. And that’s not the time to be tinkering or thinking about, you know, those technical things. So it’s good to hear that you feel that kind of applies the same with keeping.

Yeah, definitely. think like if you take, for example, like a diving catch, I think there’s got to be an element of you teaching somebody how to dive because you’ve got to build up a safe technique. And I think that’s really important to break that down as much as possible and build that up slowly. But then you’ll get to the point where after a while, someone will take a diving catch in a game and you’re almost like, how’s that happened? But it happens from the technical stuff that happens before that.

And it’s really important to do that because if you just tell somebody to die, they’re probably going to dislocate a shoulder. So it’s like, sort of, you’ve got to build that up slowly and give them the technical stuff. But over time it will happen and it’s just almost trusting that process.

It’s tricky being a keeper because you’ve got to get your technique right, obviously, and you’ve got to spend time doing that. But you’ve, like you said before, you don’t know when the ball’s coming. Bit like being a slipper. And if you do make that mistake, you can have a bit of time to dwell on it, can’t it? So getting that practice actually is ⁓ quite a challenge for a keeper, getting the volume, but also getting practice where you don’t know when it’s going to arrive.

Yeah, I see that. Ellie, in the introduction, we mentioned when Chris Scott, who was the Durham Wicket Keeper, dropped Brian Lara when he was on 20 and he went on to get a mammoth 501. Everyone makes mistakes. When a keeper makes a mistake, everybody knows about it. And you said earlier, actually, if you have a good day and you don’t make a mistake, people don’t notice it. But when you do…

Everyone sees it. when you make a mistake like a drop catch or a miss stumping, how do you get yourself back on track and ready for the next ball?

Yeah, I think that’s probably the hardest thing to deal with as a wicket keeper, to be honest. I think, like you say, when things are going well, sometimes you go really unnoticed, but all of a sudden you drop one catch and everybody notices. And like, I’ve been there, that feeling is awful. You just want the ground to swallow you up. But ultimately, I think there’s got to be a bit of acceptance with that. think with cricket, you are going to make mistakes with bat, with ball, in the field, with keeping gloves on.

Like sometimes you have more bad days than you have good days in our sport, it’s mental. So there’s got to be bit of acceptance with that. Even the best in the world drop catches. And it’s easy to sit here and say it, but it’s almost that bit of perspective that, yeah, if you drop one catch, everyone notices. But I try and reframe that in the head as like, yeah, I’ve just dropped a catch, but what if I do something really, really special now? Nobody’s going to remember that drop catch. Everyone’s going to remember the really good thing I do.

Cause the one thing that is really tough is making a mistake and then not being able to recover from it. And then you have one of the worst days you’ve ever had in the wicket keeping space because it gets worse and worse and worse. You drop more catches. it is really hard to do, but it’s almost, yeah, for me reframing that of like, right, I’m going to make up for that and do something absolutely incredible now. that sort of, sort of does help. I think again, being captain helps because it’s almost about the team and I’ve got other things to be thinking about.

And yeah, guess every ball’s an event and in 50 over cricket or T20 cricket, you’ve got so much more time to do something to impact the game. But yeah, I guess like it’s the worst feeling in the world and it’s hard for everyone to deal with really. I think something that’s helped me with it a little bit is like almost embracing it in training a little bit. think like almost getting used to dropping balls. And if that means the session’s got to be really hard at times then…

that’s, that’s okay. And almost embracing failure. think, um, when Chris Read came in, he sort of changed the way I train a little bit. um, he came in and he said, look, a, as a wicket keeper, 70, 80 % of your job is, pretty much the same all the time. It’s just rhythm. You rise with the ball and you catch it. Whereas the, the 20, 30 % is, is reaction based. And, um, that’s the really fun part. And when we’re trained and that’s how I train. I trained 70, 80 % of

really, really basic drills and making sure my basics are as world-class as they can be. And then the 20, 30 % is the really, really fun bit where I remember one of my first sessions with him, said, right, okay, this is where we’re going to try and make the impossible possible. And even just by him saying that, it framed it in my mind as, okay, this is okay if I drop balls, but actually what felt impossible in week one by the end of the winter, I was catching them. And almost you see how you improve, but also it’s…

it’s okay to drop balls, especially when it’s really, really high challenge. So yeah, guess like nobody catches 100 % of the time in training. And I think if you are, it’s probably not hard enough. But yeah, in a game it is really difficult to deal with, but I guess it happens to us all. And hopefully you’ve got some supportive teammates that get around you and supportive coaches as well, because that’s pretty important to, like.

It’s a horrible feeling to get around your player if they have made a mistake, ultimately, hopefully they can sort of change it around and do something pretty special to almost make up for it.

Yeah, I guess what’s also interesting there is, as Nathan says, people remember the keeper who dropped a catch. He remembers Chris Scott and all of that. But actually, one of the things that people talk about a lot is causing pressure in cricket is the scores and the stats that are visible. I would guess for keeping, it’s of slightly less, while you might be in the game, if you’re watching a game and you watch the keeper make mistakes, you’ll remember it. But actually, if you’re looking at the scores from a game, the keepers sort of

It’s kind of a bit hidden, whereas you can see if you got out for a duck, you can see if you bowled five wides, it’s all got hit around. It’s a little bit more hidden in that sense. Do you ever feel like the scoreboard pressure is less for the keeping? And also, I guess with that, we talk about cricket being an individual and a team sport. For a keeper, it’s very much a team because there’s less individual focus.

Thanks.

Yeah, definitely. And I think I probably said this before, but sometimes you can have an unbelievable day behind the stumps, but you’ve not had an opportunity to take a dismissal. And that’s just the way they, you can only do what’s in front of you, right? But some days five batters might run past one and you might take five really easy stumpings and everyone thinks you’re the best keeper in the world. So it’s, it’s quite a weird one really where probably only, you know, as a wicket keeper, whether you’ve had a good day or not. And I guess like,

The other thing I’ve probably struggled with over my career is the role of wicket-keeping becoming a bit less important now and actually you’ve got to be able to bat. like for me, that’s something I’ve struggled with because I’ve always been a wicket-keeper that can bat. Whereas actually to play at the next level or even just in our squad at the minute as four wicket-keepers, if I’m not scoring runs, everyone probably thinks I’m all right because I’m the captain. Like I’m struggling. There are keepers chomping at the bit who are scoring runs.

I guess now the roles changing a little bit at the elite level, especially where you’ve got to be able to bat. And I think there’s positives and negatives to that because I never put any pressure on my keeping now because it’s for me all about whether our score runs or not. So actually that less pressure that comes with that probably makes me catch better because I don’t really care, which sounds ridiculous. But then at the same time it’s

It’s if I don’t score runs, it’s then like, well, I can still impact the game with my captaincy and my keeping. And sometimes I dismiss that a little bit. So yeah, I guess it’s an interesting one. That, as the role of a really good wicket keeper gone out the game a little bit, which is pretty disappointing for a keeper like myself to sort of see. But I guess at the same time, like I can understand it a little bit. And I guess that’s where, yeah, the game’s changing and you’ve got to be able to bat as well.

Funnily enough, we had a very similar conversation on our episode on spin bowling as well, where at times it can feel like spin has now become something that’s a bonus skill for a batter to be able to do, as opposed to a kind of discipline in its own right. And it sounds like you’re saying the same with the keeping. It’s the batting that’s going to get you in the side and the wicket keeping. So obviously a nice to have.

Yeah, exactly. And I think you see it more and more in the shorter format of the game. Like, so in the hundred, last few years, I’ve spent a little bit more time on the sidelines and that’s, that’s because like the game’s a hundred balls long. Like how many balls are you going to catch as a wicket keeper within that time? How much impact on the team is the keeper going to have? Whereas actually if somebody like whacks it at the top of the order and could stick a pair of gloves on or is a part-time wicket keeper and can do a job, then actually, of course you’re going to pick that person.

So yeah, guess it’s frustrating in one sense for me, at the same time it’s a real good sort of driver for me to improve my batting. And I guess like as a player in general, you want to give as much impact to a team as you can. So I guess it’s been a good thing for me really to try and sort of make sure I’m contributing in all areas.

Do you have a, a pre-delivery routine as a keeper?

Yeah, I tend to sort of scratch off stump behind the, behind the stumps. And when I do that, I’ll just take a big deep breath. think something that I’ve found really beneficial in my career is deep breathing. think I’m someone who quite often, even if my mind’s relaxed, my body’s quite tense. And I found that really, really beneficial to just relax my body. And like I said before, key for me with keeping is just, just really relaxing.

So yeah, I find that really beneficial and there’s no real reason why I scratch off stump. don’t like stand on it or anything. It’s just something I’ve always done. I’ve probably grown up seeing other keepers do it to be honest. so yeah, it’s just something I do each ball and it’s a little reset for me. And yeah, just like making sure my body’s nice and relaxed and I’m in the best place possible to catch the ball.

And do you have any self-talk going through your mind as the bowler is running in?

Yeah, I think when I’m up to the stumps, especially, I think there’s one key thing that I think about and it’s rising with the bounce of the ball. I think that’s probably my one tip out there for any young wicket keeper. you’re up to the stumps, you can’t do anything until that ball’s bounced. And I think, like I know for myself and when I’ve coached younger keepers, as soon as you move up too early, it’s really, really hard because you’re having to move twice. And that’s really, really difficult. Whereas

I spoke about rhythm versus reaction before. That rhythm piece for me is all about rising with the bounce of the ball. Particularly as I’m playing at a higher level and balls are getting faster, balls are spinning and turning the ball more spinners. I think that’s so crucial is that I just don’t do anything until the ball’s bounced. I think sometimes you might think you’re giving yourself a bit of an advantage by moving early, but you’re not because you then got to move again and you’ve not got time.

Whereas actually if you hold your position for longer, you’ll move late and fast and everything will just sort of come into place at the right time. So that’s the one thing for me. And we spoke before about like almost that technical bit of training versus instinct in a game. I think that’s an example of me using a bit of a technical cue in a game, but it’s one thing and it’s really, really simple. And it’s something I know I can always go back to and one key thing that makes me keep well.

Whereas like with my batting, would be like to make sure my head position is right. It’s just one thing rather than you might, you might explore 10 things over a winter training block. Like if you go out to keep with 10 things in your mind, you’ve got no chance. So it’s like, actually it’s okay with, with, with a little tiny bit of technical information if that’s going to help you. But I don’t, don’t think my mind needs to be clouded too much more than that. for, for some people, I know another keeper in our squad, it’s the word relax. So it’s not nothing technical. It’s just about that feel.

Mm.

So it’ll look different for everyone but I think if you can come back to one thing or two little things that are going to keep your mind nice and clear and keep you relaxed then you’re probably not going far wrong.

Yeah. And that’s something we talk a lot about with our clients. And one thing that we encourage is very much practicing that in training as much as you’re doing in matches. And is that something that you would do if you were in the nets? Would you be doing that same little, saying the same thing to yourself, even in the nets?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. think especially because I know how important it is for me to keep well. So yeah, guess like pre-ball routines, think, like I’ve worked with young keepers on this. It’s got to be something that you have value in and it’s got to work for you because otherwise you’ll just get rid of it after a week. Like if it’s not going to be important, have value for you, you’re not going to do it over and over again. And like you say, yeah, it’s so important to do the same thing at training than in the game because I think…

The one thing I see a lot of, particularly probably with batters more than anything, they play so freely in the nets and then they go out into a game and all of a sudden they’re under so much pressure. So then you start exploring techniques to help them in a game, but then if they’re not doing it at training, it’s sort of separating training and games even further. So yeah, guess cricket’s a mad sport, isn’t it? Where training doesn’t often look like the game, but if you can try and make it as close as possible, I think you’re probably on the right lines.

Yeah, it is a mad game. was actually talking about it with some some sort of juniors yesterday and saying how it’s got to be the only sport where you train more than you play. Most under 13 year olds probably train over the course of a year, spend much more time training than actually out there playing in matches. And as you say, they look quite different.

Yeah, definitely. And I think that’s where it’s important to make training as purposeful as possible. And like for me at the minute, like it probably looks a little bit different in the summer to the winter. Like in the winter, it’s a real time for us to have loads of time to work on technical stuff and almost strip stuff back if it needs to and get really basic and really work hard on your skills. Whereas in the summer, it’s almost that, are you ready to perform piece?

Again, that’s going to look different for everyone. Like day before a game, we have optional training. Some players don’t even bother coming in. Some players like myself will come in and try and hit as many balls as possible because that’s what I feel I need to be ready. With keeping, I will catch whether it’s ⁓ a big training day or day before a game because that rhythm piece, I think it’s so important for me to just have that feel. So yeah, I guess it’s just like getting what you feel you need as a player. And quite often with wicket keeping, it’s probably just that feeling of catching balls.

and the feeling of the ball hitting your gloves and the real basic stuff. I don’t think you can do enough of that. And I think you probably see so much on social media now, or even like some of the pros doing really funky stuff at training. And that’s really cool if you want to do that. But quite a lot of my training is just under on feeds. And I think that’s what I know gets me in a really good place. It gets my technique in a good place. It doesn’t need a lot. So I just need someone to throw at me. One of my mates can do it if a coach isn’t free.

so yeah, I guess it’s just knowing, knowing how you can, you can feel ready and, and like getting what you need as a player. And I think that’s so key for a young wicket keeper that actually it doesn’t, you don’t need a world-class keeping coach. You don’t need loads of equipment. Actually, you just need somebody and it might be your mum and your dad, your brother, like, like my parents and brother did, did quite a lot for me when I was, when I was younger. It might just be one of your teammates and, ⁓ that actually you can still get really, really good practice with really basic, basic equipment and.

and not much knowledge there either.

So the evidence is very clear here from a skill development and transfer perspective. The further away practice is from the game, the less actually it transfers into performance. So the funkier the drill, I’m sure, you know, a lot of them will have a purpose, but in terms of actually producing results in a match, the funkier the drill, the less transfer it has into game.

Essentially, particularly when you’re in this time of the year, now that it’s competitive phase, that you want a lot of practice to replicate the game. Like you said, Briony cricket practice often doesn’t look like a cricket matches, it? So it can be a challenge for people. You’ve mentioned captaincy and you’ve got a lot on your plate as a keeper and being captain. And sometimes, or quite a lot of the time,

being a captain can pull you away from looking after your own performance as a player. Ray Illingworth who was a great thinker in the game and a former England captain, he used to say, Ellie, that your first responsibility as a captain was to make sure that your own game was in good order. Do you agree with that? Does it play out in your experience as a captain? What are your thoughts?

Yeah, I do tend to agree to a certain extent. think my personality, I’m really, really people-orientated, which I think is a huge strength of mine. But I also think it can be a weakness as well because I put everyone else before myself and you’re right, I need to perform as well. And sometimes I’m running around after everyone else and I do put myself last, whereas actually my performance is still really, important.

And yeah, I’ve definitely been in situations where I’ve not contributed enough and I’ve been on a bit of a low run with the bat or whatever. And that’s a really, really tough place to be as a leader. It’s when you’ve got to speak in front of the group after games and you know that you’ve not contributed enough, that’s really, really, really hard place to be. And particularly for me, because like I said before, I place so much emphasis on, I judge my performance on whether I score runs or not really. I might have had a really great day behind the stumps but that’s…

almost irrelevant in my head, which is something I need to work on. But ⁓ yeah, I do think it’s so important because ultimately me being at my best will help the team win. ⁓ And it’s almost like sometimes that, that’s so selfish is the wrong word, but almost having boundaries of, okay, this is my time to train and get what I need right now. And then I’ll pick up conversations with other people at the end or like night before a game, I’ll put a time that I’ll be in the hotel bar from.

6.30 till 7 if anyone wants to talk about the fields. So I’m like setting that boundary so that that’s my time for the people, but actually I’ve still got time for myself because ultimately I know I need an early night and to not be around people and I’m for a game to turn up and be my best self. So it’s such a tough balance, but I think, yeah, you’ve almost got two jobs, haven’t you? You’ve got to perform, but you’ve got to look after the team and make sure everyone else is in a good space to perform. yeah, whether I get that right or not all the time, I don’t know.

But I try my best to make sure I’m in the best possible place. But I think, yeah, my personality is very much to try and help and make sure everyone else is OK as well.

So you’ve studied psychology, you’ve got a keen interest in it, you’re at Sale Sharks today doing a bit with the players. Where does this interest come from, Ellie? And how much has it influenced not just how you approach your own game, but also how you lead your teammates?

Yeah, I think it’s one of my greatest accidents, to be honest. think I was on an England program for cricket as a kid and I was playing football as well at a decent level and I was missing so much school and college that I ended up messing my A levels up. And at the time there was no professional women’s cricket in Manchester for me. So I knew I had to go to Loughborough, which had an amazing program that allowed you to train.

and study as well like a professional cricketer. So that was my one thing that I just needed to go there. So with the grades I got, the only course they’d let me on was psychology. So my thought process was if I get a degree at the end of this, it’s a bit of a bonus sort of thing. anyway, I went and cricket was amazing there and yeah, I ended up getting a degree and I really enjoyed studying it actually. And I think the only thing I’ve ever known is to be a sort of student athlete, if you like.

I think I mentioned before about staying sort of mentally fresh. Like for me, I’m not very good at doing nothing. having something else going on really helps me to balance the sort of pressures of sport, if you like. And like today, for example, we got beat yesterday, it a terrible day, got rain affected and so frustrating. But I’ve come in here today as the psyche at sale sharks and I’m probably the best version of myself because I’m not sat thinking about that terrible day yesterday. So it does really help me.

So yeah, I went on to do a masters at Staffordshire Uni after that, which was like distance learning because I was in Australia playing cricket at the time. So I managed to do that out there. And then I’m just coming towards the end of my BPS stage two stuff now to become qualified. So I’ve got another few weeks of that left and hopefully pass my VIVA, which I’m not stressed about at all. And then when I do that, then yeah, I should be good to go.

Yeah, it’s been like, yeah, like I said, a bit bit accidental, if you like, but something I’ve I’ve really enjoyed. And I just spoke then about sort of my personality type, really, really thriving off, almost helping others. And that’s something I really get by doing this job and something I really, really enjoy as well. I think so, yeah, I guess the more I’ve learned about about psychology, probably the more it helps my performance. I guess I’ve got a

a greater sense of self-awareness now, of almost figured things out for myself. Which to be honest, if I hadn’t have done, I think we’ve got some brilliant sports psyche support at Lancashire now, like where the women’s game is that I could tap into and I still use our psych now, it’s brilliant. But yeah, like throughout the process, learnt so much about myself and my own game and yeah, I guess like there’s stuff about leadership as well.

that the self-awareness bit is a huge part of that. And I think for me, that’s the real underpinning of any sort of psychological thing you’re working on or it’s that self-awareness bit. And I think if you know yourself really well, you can then know what you need to be at your best and how to get there. But I think the starting point is, yeah, knowing yourself. yeah, I think it’s been brilliant. Not only has it helped me sort of switch off, it’s probably the bit.

made me a better leader. It’s probably made me a better coach when I coach as well. I probably have had more impact in that space from a mental side of things. ⁓ And yeah, I guess my experience as a cricketer has helped me do this job better as well. Like I come in here with with sale sharks women here in a real similar boat to where Lancashire women’s cricket is. And I know it’s a very different sport, but the experiences I’ve had as a player, like

understanding of elite sport and the highs and the lows and the pressures that put you under. There’s quite a lot of people who are dual career here as well so the experience of that I think they all really tie really nicely together and as busy as I am they overlap quite a bit as well and I think it’s put them in a good place to do each job a little bit better which is nice.

It’s great. I really think it’s so great to have a separate strand to your life outside your sport and it’s so easy to get so wrapped up in that. But I wondered as well if it’s affected how you view your opposition, particularly as a keeper where you’ve obviously got such a great view of the game. can watch the process of the batter. can almost feel sometimes like you can read their mind, particularly if they’ve got very overt body language and the bowler and things like that. Has it changed your perception of…

teams that you’re playing against and things like that at all.

⁓ I probably wouldn’t say it has to be honest, but I think one of the, one of the key bits of captaincy is like, how do you balance like attack and defence and that, that sort of, how do you create pressure to, to take wickets? And I think, ⁓ that’s something that I’ve worked quite hard on over the last few years and like finding different ways to create pressure. ⁓ which I guess is the psychological component, but I think that’s probably come more with, with experience of captaining than anything. ⁓

But yeah, sometimes you just sort of get a sense that something’s going to happen. And I do feel like I’m pretty switched on to that. But again, I think that’s probably just through experience of doing it now, which is something I’ve worked quite hard on.

In my experience Ellie when I’m learning something new, the more that I learn, the more that I realise that I don’t know. And I go through a period of, ⁓ crikey, I start doubting myself now. And then I get through that and come through to the other side and you understand the why, don’t you?

Thinking about your journey learning about psychology, has that knowledge always been helpful to your cricket or have there been times where it’s actually got in the way a bit?

Yeah, definitely has not been a benefit at times because not only am I probably overthinking things, but I’m also like, goodness me, I’m a fraud. I’m sat here stressing about cricket when I’m trying to tell everyone else what to do. So yeah, guess like, but like nobody has all the answers and I think it’s almost like, like I still use our psych all the time and whether that’s to bounce ideas off about how we make our culture better or…

Actually, like I might have had a really tough day at the office yesterday and I might just need to get it off my chest and debrief it with someone. Like it’s not necessarily him saying, okay, I’m going to talk you through some visualization or something quite almost advanced. might just be someone to talk to. And I guess, the knowledge I’ve got as a psyche I’ve had loads of times where I’ve doubted myself and that imposter syndrome, particularly when you first start, you speak to someone and they, sound like a textbook and you’re like, my goodness, like, I don’t know enough. Whereas actually over time.

like you realize, and when you’ve got your almost athlete hat on, you’re like, actually, you just want to speak to a human being. And yes, the knowledge is important, but the people skills are more important. So yeah, I guess it definitely still creeps in the imposter syndrome and it definitely creeps in still as a player as well. So I think being able to talk about that to somebody and still almost showing vulnerability as well. I think it’s a real strength of a leader. think if you can show vulnerability as a leader, then other players will be able to as well.

like something yesterday as basic as like I got out at a really bad time yesterday and it put us in a really difficult position as a team when we worked so hard to get to this position. And I think for me, it was so important that I openly said that in front of the group because I want other people to feel like it’s a safe space to talk. And even just little bits like that about like, how do we make our culture better? I think is something that, yeah, I find our psyche really helpful to work with on that.

Yeah. And I guess it must, as a captain, get frustrating for you potentially at times. Well, if you’re teammates, you can sort of see them struggling with the mental side of things and wanting to help them and wanting to kind of support them. But as you say, you need that self-awareness and you need to make also that choice for yourself to seek out help and support.

Yeah, definitely. And I think like I use our psyche quite a lot for that. Cause I mentioned before about like, ⁓ I’m often worrying about everybody else. like nobody tends to worry about me because I’m that person, if that makes sense. So like having, having our cycle or our coaching staff are a great support network as well. And my family just to know who I need to go to when I need to just bounce ideas off or sometimes just talk to you. that, that’s, that’s so important. and yeah, like sometimes.

It’s really hard for me to have conversations with players when I see it quite a lot when like somebody might be on a bit of a tough run of form or whatever and they just get back in the nets all the time. And in my head, I’m like, I think you might need to speak to the psyche here. And like, so I really, really want to help, but that’s not my space to sort of do that. So it’s sort of almost like trying to direct them in that direction or yeah, just taking the time to take them for a coffee and to talk about cricket rather than actually.

like fueling the let’s get back in the nets sort of thing. Because yeah, guess like cricket is such a game that is very, very simple, but can be very, very over complicated. it’s, I think like anyone would be lying if they said they don’t have the sort of mental challenges with cricket. yeah, I think it’s so important to sort of know who you’re going to go to in that situation.

You made me chuckle a bit earlier when you were talking about whoever it was speaking to you in complicated technical language. And you’re like, Oh God, I don’t know what’s going on here. But I can’t remember who said it. wasn’t a cricketer. It wasn’t anything to do with sport. I think it was a businessman, but he used to say, if you can’t explain something simply, you don’t know your subject well enough. And I think keeping the language simple with your players because.

They’ll appreciate it much more. So sounds like what you’re doing is right stuff The final area that we’d like to kind of explore with you is that support available to wicket keepers, particularly those Ellie who don’t have a dedicated wicket keeping coach at their club. So.

Let’s start with coaches. If there’s a coach out there who wants to help the keepers, but they’ve got no wicket-keeping knowledge at all, where do they start? How do they help those one or two keepers that have got in the group?

Yeah, I think like you’d like to think any sort of cricket coach would have a bit of knowledge on fielding. And I think actually as a wicket keeper, you are just catching the ball. So I think sometimes it’s less about the technical stuff and it’s more about just making them catch. And like I said before about making them feel valued and giving them that little bit of time. I think for me, like one of my most key drills ever is like, I’ve just got a set of stumps in front of me.

And I’ve got a coach or my mum, my dad, my brother, whoever’s available with a ball, who is probably two yards away from me on one knee. where a good length ball would bounce. And all it is is just little underarm feeds. And what’s that teaching me to do is rise with the bounce of the ball. Cause ultimately that’s where the ball would pitch. ⁓ and that, like I said before, is the, the, the one key thing that I would say stood up to the stumps is so important. And that really, really basic drill I do five times a week.

Like even as a professional cricketer, that’s my, the biggest drill I could suggest. And ultimately anybody could do that. So yeah, I guess like the technical knowledge isn’t as hard as you think. think there will be little bits in there. think for me, like my posture has been pretty key over the years. And yes, that is a little bit sort of technical, but ultimately I think for youngsters, it’s just getting them to catch balls and keeping it fun really. I think the…

the almost rhythm versus reaction stuff I said before, like that drill off one knee would be the rhythm stuff. But with the reaction stuff, you could have all sorts of fun. I think what’s key with that is that you make it pretty clear that actually you might drop some balls here, like, and almost let’s see what you can do. And that’s the really fun bit and kids will love that. Anything reaction based kids, kids will absolutely love. I think for me, like I said, the enjoyment bit and the bit of what’s going to keep them going is like, have they got

almost like a safe and sound catching technique. Because the one thing you don’t want to do is put them in a situation where they could get hurt or they’re going to be scared of the ball because that’s going to make them not want to do it. I think probably the main thing I see with that is either getting them to stand up to the stumps too early without sort of helping them to get confidence with that. Or equally, when they’re stood back, there’s almost that sort of like no man’s land a little bit where you sort of stood a yard back from the stumps.

it’s really, really fast and you’ve got no chance of catching it. Or you then stood 15 yards back and it’s bouncing seven times and you’re missing it anyway. So I guess just helping them to find out where’s comfortable for them to catch the ball stood back and can they get better at assessing where that’s going to be in the game. And I think when they get to the stage where they do want to stand up to the stunts, that’s really, really good, encourage it, but also understand that they’re going to miss balls, help them to understand that they’re going to miss balls. And I think

protect them a little bit as well. If that means you need a really fine leg or a really straight third man, protect them. Because ultimately if you’re costing yourself 40 byes per game, you might be losing, but also it’s not going to make the keeper feel very good either. So I guess it’s just real basic things like that to sort of help them to enjoy it, but also protecting them a little bit as well.

I that’s really interesting you say about the protecting bit because I remember I used to keep a bit in kind of when I was younger and I remember once we were doing a warm up and I just kept missing everything and it was because they were it was like under 11 they were throwing the ball at my feet and I but I couldn’t every time I just kept missing it and the coach just said guys let’s get it into the keeper’s hands or something like that and it made me feel sort of protected like you say there because so often as a keeper especially when they’re really little

They’re like, why can’t I catch it? it’s like, well, half the time you can’t catch it because the throws that are coming in in the matches or from your team are actually not, you know, not appropriate. So I think that’s a really good point in there about protecting them from, from what’s their response. Obviously you keep his role is to stop the ball, but there is also a responsibility on the field as to that have a semi decent throw into them as well. Especially at those younger age groups where it can be so wayward.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think that’s something else I see quite a lot is like when everybody else is fielding, they get the wicket keeper to stand next to the coach and catch the balls in. And like I’m not saying it’s bad to do that, but also, yeah, you’re probably not making them feel great if the throws aren’t great. And also you probably just battering their hands, you know what mean?

Great advice. Final question, Ellie. What’s the best piece of advice that you could give a young wicket keeper who wants to ⁓ get into professional cricket who’s watching or listening to this?

I think the best bit of advice is probably to almost like it’s probably that balance between hard work and enjoying it. Like I think you’ve got to want to do it. I think quite often I get asked like, how’d you know? Like who’s going to be a good keeper? It’s just, it’s the person who will absolutely love it. You’ve got to. And I think the two things link. If you love it, you’ll, you’ll want to catch balls all the time. Like I’m pretty sure Ready is sick of me at training because I just want to keep all the time. Cause I love it.

And I think ultimately the two things will work hand in hand. If you love it, you’ll work harder, you’ll get better. So I think finding ways to enjoy it and to work harder. Ultimately there’s no substitute for catching balls. The more you do it, the better you’ll get.

I don’t think Chris Read will get concerned or worried about you badgering him about wicket keeping He loves his keeping more than anyone. Great keeper himself, wasn’t he? And a great person. So send my best to him. Ellie, it’s been brilliant having you on. We’ve covered quite a lot there. And I’m sure there’ll be loads of kind of value that players, coaches and parents can take from this. So thanks so much for

for giving us your time and we do wish you the very best of luck for the rest of the season and beyond. And also that Viva, we’ll keep our fingers crossed with that. And if you ever fancy a job at Cricket Mind, then you’re very welcome to come and join the team after your playing days have gone. So yeah, thanks very much for coming on.

No, no, thank you, you’ve enjoyed it.

Thank you, Ellie

Okay, so that’s it for this week. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, then please do subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss any future episodes and please do give us a rate and review. Now, you may have noticed that we didn’t put a show out last week and that’s because we’re now going to release episodes every other week now that the season has began. So therefore, we look forward to seeing you again.

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